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	<title>Comments on: Stepping Through the Looking Glass: Test-Driven Game Development (Part 1)</title>
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	<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1</link>
	<description>Living the indie life</description>
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		<title>By: Chad Austin</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-138</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-138</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Test Driven Development: First Impressions&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Test Driven Development: First Impressions</strong></p>
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		<title>By: Fosta's Blog</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-137</link>
		<dc:creator>Fosta's Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2005 20:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-137</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Test Driven Development&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Test Driven Development</strong></p>
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		<title>By: Radium Software Development</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-136</link>
		<dc:creator>Radium Software Development</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-136</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Test Driven Development&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Test Driven Development</strong></p>
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		<title>By: The Shoes of the Fisherman's Wife Are Some Jive-Ass Slippers</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-135</link>
		<dc:creator>The Shoes of the Fisherman's Wife Are Some Jive-Ass Slippers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2005 16:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-135</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;More On Test Driven Development&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>More On Test Driven Development</strong></p>
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		<title>By: IndieGameDev</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-134</link>
		<dc:creator>IndieGameDev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Mar 2005 16:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-134</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Games from Within&lt;/strong&gt;







&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gamesfromwithin.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Games from Within&lt;/a&gt; is a weblog written by &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gamesfromwithin.com/aboutme.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Noel Llopis&lt;/a&gt;,

who has a pretty impressive game d...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Games from Within</strong></p>
<p><a href="http://www.gamesfromwithin.com" rel="nofollow">Games from Within</a> is a weblog written by <a href="http://www.gamesfromwithin.com/aboutme.html" rel="nofollow">Noel Llopis</a>,</p>
<p>who has a pretty impressive game d&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Baraclese</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-133</link>
		<dc:creator>Baraclese</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Mar 2005 00:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-133</guid>
		<description>Okay, I just worked a few hours on setting up a unit test suite for my project. Most of that time was spent in my SConstruct/script files, I pretty much had to throw out all of my old code to support more than one executable, to get the build directories right and handle different environments more flexibly, it&#039;s much better now. I use the boost testing framework cause I love boost.



Guess what?! I discovered a bug in my first test! I was alittle puzzled at first because I thought &quot;it can&#039;t be! it works fine in the game!&quot;. I made an unconscious assumption about a container never being empty, dereferencing the iterator in a tiny hidden loop. BOOM! I stepped in with gdb, found the function that was called and repaired the sourcecode.



Am I convinced? Hell yes, it&#039;s fun too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I just worked a few hours on setting up a unit test suite for my project. Most of that time was spent in my SConstruct/script files, I pretty much had to throw out all of my old code to support more than one executable, to get the build directories right and handle different environments more flexibly, it&#8217;s much better now. I use the boost testing framework cause I love boost.</p>
<p>Guess what?! I discovered a bug in my first test! I was alittle puzzled at first because I thought &#8220;it can&#8217;t be! it works fine in the game!&#8221;. I made an unconscious assumption about a container never being empty, dereferencing the iterator in a tiny hidden loop. BOOM! I stepped in with gdb, found the function that was called and repaired the sourcecode.</p>
<p>Am I convinced? Hell yes, it&#8217;s fun too.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Higinbotham</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-132</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Higinbotham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Mar 2005 16:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-132</guid>
		<description>Noel, I didn&#039;t mean to imply that I thought TDD was not a good method.  I think it is a great way to create and test public methods and functions.  Forcing developers to run/pass unit-tests before checking in code is a bit of a pain, but well worth the effort based on my limited experience.



The drawback I was talking about earlier is really a more general problem and not related directly to TDD.  I guess it is more related to agile programming.  I really like the idea of constantly refactoring code/classes/interfaces and corresponding unit-tests.  I rarely get all of my class methods right the first time I create them.  It is not until I start using the class do I realize the best methods I need and how they should work.  Being able to refactor is crucial to getting to the right design and implementation.



But most projects I&#039;ve been on tend to resist any changes to &quot;public&quot; code that could affect documents, developers, or testers.  Instead developers are encouraged to work-around any deficiencies.  Work-arounds can be Ok but they can also lead to hacky bloated code, duplicate functionality, and performance problems.  The longer the work-arounds are in the more likely they become a permanent part of the code base.  Changes to the code (and unit-tests) sometimes finally occur at the eleventh hour when ship stopping functional and performance problems become apparent.



This is really a management problem and not a TDD problem.  I just brought this up because in my last project we used unit-tests to not only drive code development but to also document and specify public interfaces/classes.  Later in the project during coding that actually used the public classes it was almost impossible to get a method changed or added.  This in part caused severe end-game problems and a seven month slip in ship date.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noel, I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that I thought TDD was not a good method.  I think it is a great way to create and test public methods and functions.  Forcing developers to run/pass unit-tests before checking in code is a bit of a pain, but well worth the effort based on my limited experience.</p>
<p>The drawback I was talking about earlier is really a more general problem and not related directly to TDD.  I guess it is more related to agile programming.  I really like the idea of constantly refactoring code/classes/interfaces and corresponding unit-tests.  I rarely get all of my class methods right the first time I create them.  It is not until I start using the class do I realize the best methods I need and how they should work.  Being able to refactor is crucial to getting to the right design and implementation.</p>
<p>But most projects I&#8217;ve been on tend to resist any changes to &#8220;public&#8221; code that could affect documents, developers, or testers.  Instead developers are encouraged to work-around any deficiencies.  Work-arounds can be Ok but they can also lead to hacky bloated code, duplicate functionality, and performance problems.  The longer the work-arounds are in the more likely they become a permanent part of the code base.  Changes to the code (and unit-tests) sometimes finally occur at the eleventh hour when ship stopping functional and performance problems become apparent.</p>
<p>This is really a management problem and not a TDD problem.  I just brought this up because in my last project we used unit-tests to not only drive code development but to also document and specify public interfaces/classes.  Later in the project during coding that actually used the public classes it was almost impossible to get a method changed or added.  This in part caused severe end-game problems and a seven month slip in ship date.</p>
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		<title>By: Julien Koenen</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator>Julien Koenen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-131</guid>
		<description>There is a short summary (in german) here: &lt;a href=&quot;http://igda.dimajix.net/fileadmin/ressources/report-03/07_roeken_summary.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://igda.dimajix.net/fileadmin/ressources/report-03/07_roeken_summary.pdf&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a short summary (in german) here: <a href="http://igda.dimajix.net/fileadmin/ressources/report-03/07_roeken_summary.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://igda.dimajix.net/fileadmin/ressources/report-03/07_roeken_summary.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Noel Llopis</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-130</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel Llopis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-130</guid>
		<description>Chris: Good idea about the DLLs! Using DLLs might make it easier to run all the tests. I hadn&#039;t considered before because most of my work had been with static libs, but it&#039;s definitely worth looking into.



Do you have a link to Röken&#039;s presentation? I Googled for it but nothing came up. I&#039;d love to find out more about what they&#039;re doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris: Good idea about the DLLs! Using DLLs might make it easier to run all the tests. I hadn&#8217;t considered before because most of my work had been with static libs, but it&#8217;s definitely worth looking into.</p>
<p>Do you have a link to Röken&#8217;s presentation? I Googled for it but nothing came up. I&#8217;d love to find out more about what they&#8217;re doing.</p>
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		<title>By: Noel Llopis</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel Llopis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-129</guid>
		<description>Robert and Paul: Build times can be an issue if it&#039;s not done correctly. I&#039;ll definitely talk about that in the third part of the article. For now I&#039;ll just say that using TDD gave me the fastest iteration times I&#039;ve ever seen in my life because you&#039;re working with one particular library and not with a whole bunch of code at once.



Each unit test should really be blazingly fast. Probably in the order of a microsecond. You should be able to run 100,000 of those in one second, so that shouldn&#039;t be an issue. Remember, these are *unit tests*, so they work directly on one class, not on the whole program.



What do you see at some of the drawbacks of TDD? There&#039;s the extra code, but frankly, I see that more of an advantage than a disadvantage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert and Paul: Build times can be an issue if it&#8217;s not done correctly. I&#8217;ll definitely talk about that in the third part of the article. For now I&#8217;ll just say that using TDD gave me the fastest iteration times I&#8217;ve ever seen in my life because you&#8217;re working with one particular library and not with a whole bunch of code at once.</p>
<p>Each unit test should really be blazingly fast. Probably in the order of a microsecond. You should be able to run 100,000 of those in one second, so that shouldn&#8217;t be an issue. Remember, these are *unit tests*, so they work directly on one class, not on the whole program.</p>
<p>What do you see at some of the drawbacks of TDD? There&#8217;s the extra code, but frankly, I see that more of an advantage than a disadvantage.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Higinbotham</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-128</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Higinbotham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-128</guid>
		<description>Good article on TDD and I look forward to seeing more.  My experience with TDD was in my last project building a middle tier and UI layers for a business application.  We ended up with hundreds of unit-tests that took a fair amount of time to run.  Nevertheless we maintained the discipline of requiring all unit-tests to pass before any new code is checked in.  Overall this was a very good thing.  We required unit-tests for the middle layer but couldn&#039;t think of any way of writing unit-test for most of the UI.  Our testers found and adopted some automated UI testing framework, but unfortunately it didn&#039;t work out very well.  Testers spent most of their time adjusting the automated tests to pass when small layout changes occurred (which happens regularly).  Also many spit and polish problems weren&#039;t found until near ship time, during hand testing of the UI.



One major problem was that we left out the &quot;refactor code, refactor tests&quot; iteration of TDD.  Once the tests and code were written and passing they became a kind of spec/contract and were &quot;locked down&quot;.  This was done to meet a very tight schedule.  If you wanted to find out how an interface was supposed to work then go look at the unit-tests.



The problem, of course, was that owner written unit-tests don&#039;t always equate to how code is really used by customers.  After some severe customer performance/functional problems we finally incorporated code/unit-test refactoring based on actual code use and need.  Locking down the interfaces early just caused product slip as customers first tried to work around interface problems, then finally allowing the code and unit tests to be refactored to meet customer needs.  There is a fine balance between process driven development and maintaining flexibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good article on TDD and I look forward to seeing more.  My experience with TDD was in my last project building a middle tier and UI layers for a business application.  We ended up with hundreds of unit-tests that took a fair amount of time to run.  Nevertheless we maintained the discipline of requiring all unit-tests to pass before any new code is checked in.  Overall this was a very good thing.  We required unit-tests for the middle layer but couldn&#8217;t think of any way of writing unit-test for most of the UI.  Our testers found and adopted some automated UI testing framework, but unfortunately it didn&#8217;t work out very well.  Testers spent most of their time adjusting the automated tests to pass when small layout changes occurred (which happens regularly).  Also many spit and polish problems weren&#8217;t found until near ship time, during hand testing of the UI.</p>
<p>One major problem was that we left out the &#8220;refactor code, refactor tests&#8221; iteration of TDD.  Once the tests and code were written and passing they became a kind of spec/contract and were &#8220;locked down&#8221;.  This was done to meet a very tight schedule.  If you wanted to find out how an interface was supposed to work then go look at the unit-tests.</p>
<p>The problem, of course, was that owner written unit-tests don&#8217;t always equate to how code is really used by customers.  After some severe customer performance/functional problems we finally incorporated code/unit-test refactoring based on actual code use and need.  Locking down the interfaces early just caused product slip as customers first tried to work around interface problems, then finally allowing the code and unit tests to be refactored to meet customer needs.  There is a fine balance between process driven development and maintaining flexibility.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bi</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-127</guid>
		<description>1.) F. Röken of Trinigy held a very interesting presentation at an IGDA chapter meating in Frankfurt, Germany. They are with great success applying unit tests and test driven development in developing their game engine. He also shows that TDD can be very supportive in continuous integration and distribution.



2.) I personaly build test/test-suites into modules (DLLs on win32) and store them in a directory hierarchy (engine/audio/oggStreaming.dll). That has in my opinion some advantages over using executeables. Memory tracking and timing is implemented in one place, tests can be run with different &quot;views&quot;, a command line exe for a post build step in VS, an UI that supports result history comparing .... A test DLL&#039;s source and project files are created from a template so that only the code for the test case itself needs to be written. Multiple test can also easily be refactored into a test-suite contained in a single module.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.) F. Röken of Trinigy held a very interesting presentation at an IGDA chapter meating in Frankfurt, Germany. They are with great success applying unit tests and test driven development in developing their game engine. He also shows that TDD can be very supportive in continuous integration and distribution.</p>
<p>2.) I personaly build test/test-suites into modules (DLLs on win32) and store them in a directory hierarchy (engine/audio/oggStreaming.dll). That has in my opinion some advantages over using executeables. Memory tracking and timing is implemented in one place, tests can be run with different &#8220;views&#8221;, a command line exe for a post build step in VS, an UI that supports result history comparing &#8230;. A test DLL&#8217;s source and project files are created from a template so that only the code for the test case itself needs to be written. Multiple test can also easily be refactored into a test-suite contained in a single module.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert 'Groby' Blum</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert 'Groby' Blum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-126</guid>
		<description>TDD is a great thing to do - except in a C++ environment it has quite an impact on build times. Even if you keep dependencies low. And if  you keep dependencies low, you&#039;re only testing on the lowest level, the unit - there&#039;s no testing of the interop of all the components you have.



All this from a tools, not a game perspective - but I doubt things are that different. Most of the drawbacks only hit after a while - we&#039;ve got about 700 tests or so covering our code base, and it&#039;s slowly having an impact.



Out of curiosity - how much code that gets written at your place is actually TDDed? How do you keep build times low? (And what do you consider low?)



There are a few other drawbacks to TDD. It remains a great practice, but like all &quot;best practices&quot;, you&#039;ve got to know the constraints. Since I&#039;m doing the complaining, I guess that means I need to sit down and write a bit about it - stay tuned :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TDD is a great thing to do &#8211; except in a C++ environment it has quite an impact on build times. Even if you keep dependencies low. And if  you keep dependencies low, you&#8217;re only testing on the lowest level, the unit &#8211; there&#8217;s no testing of the interop of all the components you have.</p>
<p>All this from a tools, not a game perspective &#8211; but I doubt things are that different. Most of the drawbacks only hit after a while &#8211; we&#8217;ve got about 700 tests or so covering our code base, and it&#8217;s slowly having an impact.</p>
<p>Out of curiosity &#8211; how much code that gets written at your place is actually TDDed? How do you keep build times low? (And what do you consider low?)</p>
<p>There are a few other drawbacks to TDD. It remains a great practice, but like all &#8220;best practices&#8221;, you&#8217;ve got to know the constraints. Since I&#8217;m doing the complaining, I guess that means I need to sit down and write a bit about it &#8211; stay tuned <img src='http://gamesfromwithin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Noel Llopis</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-125</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel Llopis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-125</guid>
		<description>Ian: Yes, that&#039;s going to be one of the main subjects of the second part (which I&#039;m writing today and I&#039;ll try to put up by the end of the day).



This is also by no means the last time I&#039;m planning on writing about TDD (noticed I created a whole category for it), so I&#039;ll be coming back to it on a regular basis.



Al: I did have a section in the outline to talk about when TDD is not appropriate. As you said, exploratory programming does not benefit from TDD (being throwaway code that you just want to write quickly and learn from it--spikes in XP terminology).



There are also times where doing TDD is more trouble than it&#039;s worth: writing a wrapper around an existing library, dealing very close to the hardware, the GUI layer of a tool, or super high-level game code in a scripting language. But I do believe that TDD is a great way to go for 99% of the C++ code written in games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian: Yes, that&#8217;s going to be one of the main subjects of the second part (which I&#8217;m writing today and I&#8217;ll try to put up by the end of the day).</p>
<p>This is also by no means the last time I&#8217;m planning on writing about TDD (noticed I created a whole category for it), so I&#8217;ll be coming back to it on a regular basis.</p>
<p>Al: I did have a section in the outline to talk about when TDD is not appropriate. As you said, exploratory programming does not benefit from TDD (being throwaway code that you just want to write quickly and learn from it&#8211;spikes in XP terminology).</p>
<p>There are also times where doing TDD is more trouble than it&#8217;s worth: writing a wrapper around an existing library, dealing very close to the hardware, the GUI layer of a tool, or super high-level game code in a scripting language. But I do believe that TDD is a great way to go for 99% of the C++ code written in games.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristian Dupont</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/stepping-through-the-looking-glass-test-driven-game-development-part-1/comment-page-1#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristian Dupont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=324#comment-124</guid>
		<description>Very good articles, Noel. It&#039;s good to read about people using agile techniques with C++ because there seems to be a rather conservative attitude in general in that environment, I think.



For Ian: graphics is indeed hard to test (though not impossible), whereas network layers is a bit more approachable. I would probably use mock objects (see mockpp for a framework that is rather well supported).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good articles, Noel. It&#8217;s good to read about people using agile techniques with C++ because there seems to be a rather conservative attitude in general in that environment, I think.</p>
<p>For Ian: graphics is indeed hard to test (though not impossible), whereas network layers is a bit more approachable. I would probably use mock objects (see mockpp for a framework that is rather well supported).</p>
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