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	<title>Comments on: Bringing Back The Dream</title>
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	<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/bringing-back-the-dream</link>
	<description>Indie iPhone game development</description>
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		<title>By: Let's Kill Dave!</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/bringing-back-the-dream/comment-page-1#comment-382</link>
		<dc:creator>Let's Kill Dave!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=346#comment-382</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Community Websites, Agile Development, and Gaming&lt;/strong&gt;







So, I&#039;ve spent the better part of this last week (and this) doing some planning for what a community</description>
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<p><strong>Community Websites, Agile Development, and Gaming</strong></p>
<p>So, I&#39;ve spent the better part of this last week (and this) doing some planning for what a community</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan McNett</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/bringing-back-the-dream/comment-page-1#comment-379</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan McNett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Aug 2006 05:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=346#comment-379</guid>
		<description>I disagree with the thrust of this post. If you compare 2006 with 1985, 2006 has such an overwhelmingly huge variety of free game programming tools and assets for everyone. If the 1985 me were teleported here, he would drool at DarkBasic, C# express, Perl, Python, OpenGL...



The fact that these tools are not &quot;pre-installed&quot; would not stop anyone who really wants to make games. If you&#039;re too afraid to download a free programming language, you don&#039;t deserve to make games anyway.



If you want to make games today, there are just thousands of free choices: you can join a MOD crew, you can write GameBoy Color in ASM, you can write Direct3D in C++, etc. etc.



If there&#039;s a problem, it&#039;s that no matter what game you make, and no matter how good it is, chances are that you&#039;ll **never** make any money at it, unless you become a very small cog at a very large company.



Bryan McNett

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mcnett.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.mcnett.org/&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazingpig.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.amazingpig.com/&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with the thrust of this post. If you compare 2006 with 1985, 2006 has such an overwhelmingly huge variety of free game programming tools and assets for everyone. If the 1985 me were teleported here, he would drool at DarkBasic, C# express, Perl, Python, OpenGL&#8230;</p>
<p>The fact that these tools are not &#8220;pre-installed&#8221; would not stop anyone who really wants to make games. If you&#8217;re too afraid to download a free programming language, you don&#8217;t deserve to make games anyway.</p>
<p>If you want to make games today, there are just thousands of free choices: you can join a MOD crew, you can write GameBoy Color in ASM, you can write Direct3D in C++, etc. etc.</p>
<p>If there&#8217;s a problem, it&#8217;s that no matter what game you make, and no matter how good it is, chances are that you&#8217;ll **never** make any money at it, unless you become a very small cog at a very large company.</p>
<p>Bryan McNett</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mcnett.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.mcnett.org/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazingpig.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazingpig.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: James Longstreet</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/bringing-back-the-dream/comment-page-1#comment-378</link>
		<dc:creator>James Longstreet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=346#comment-378</guid>
		<description>Great article.  I&#039;m significantly younger than you, but I had a very similar experience with TI calculators in middle school and high school - going from BASIC to Z80 assembler.  If you&#039;re interested in getting that feeling again, pick up a calculator and link cable -- the possibilities are endless.  The TI-84+ may be your best bet, because it supports USB and comes with a cable, so the cost of entry is slightly lower.



The best resource I&#039;ve found is ticalc.org.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article.  I&#8217;m significantly younger than you, but I had a very similar experience with TI calculators in middle school and high school &#8211; going from BASIC to Z80 assembler.  If you&#8217;re interested in getting that feeling again, pick up a calculator and link cable &#8212; the possibilities are endless.  The TI-84+ may be your best bet, because it supports USB and comes with a cable, so the cost of entry is slightly lower.</p>
<p>The best resource I&#8217;ve found is ticalc.org.</p>
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		<title>By: Gamasutra</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/bringing-back-the-dream/comment-page-1#comment-381</link>
		<dc:creator>Gamasutra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=346#comment-381</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Opinion: Bringing Back The Dream&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="">
<p><strong>Opinion: Bringing Back The Dream</strong></p>
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		<title>By: Yggy King</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/bringing-back-the-dream/comment-page-1#comment-377</link>
		<dc:creator>Yggy King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Aug 2006 06:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=346#comment-377</guid>
		<description>Totally agree. I got a Commodore 64 in 1983(?) and had the same BASIC to assembly experience, with lots of fun along the way. I was very naive -- didn&#039;t realize there was such a thing as a symbolic assembler, so I coded all my assembler directly to memory with a debug monitor and addresses of &quot;variables&quot; scribbled on scrap paper.



The C64 was the first and last machine that I truly understood inside out ... came close with the Nintendo 64, but a Windows PC? Forget it!! I like where the XNA initiative is going, pity it&#039;s not free on Xbox360 too, and definitely needs a simple distribution model -- perhaps a public corner of Xbox Live Arcade?



Keep up the good work on the website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Totally agree. I got a Commodore 64 in 1983(?) and had the same BASIC to assembly experience, with lots of fun along the way. I was very naive &#8212; didn&#8217;t realize there was such a thing as a symbolic assembler, so I coded all my assembler directly to memory with a debug monitor and addresses of &#8220;variables&#8221; scribbled on scrap paper.</p>
<p>The C64 was the first and last machine that I truly understood inside out &#8230; came close with the Nintendo 64, but a Windows PC? Forget it!! I like where the XNA initiative is going, pity it&#8217;s not free on Xbox360 too, and definitely needs a simple distribution model &#8212; perhaps a public corner of Xbox Live Arcade?</p>
<p>Keep up the good work on the website.</p>
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		<title>By: Bjørn</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/bringing-back-the-dream/comment-page-1#comment-376</link>
		<dc:creator>Bjørn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Aug 2006 02:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=346#comment-376</guid>
		<description>I was hooked by programming in the same way, but on the Apple IIe, which also would boot to a BASIC prompt (though there was some sort of reboot key combo required as I recall).  Started w/ print statements, and soon moved to graphical programming, which luckily one of my manuals had a section on.



I also remember trying to learn C in the late 90&#039;s; the selection of free tools available at that time was pale in comparison to tools available today.  This is something that I think was a major barrier; it&#039;s much less risky to spend a bit of time installing some free tools to experiment with than to have to buy a piece of software just to do some tinkering.



So I think the resources available today are much greater, but as you say, it&#039;s much more complicated.  Luckily, as you point out, there are languages such as python which are quite easy to start playing with, but do not come pre-installed . . . at least on a windows machine.  Python, Perl, and gcc are pretty standard features of most Linux distros.  Heck, users can even start with a bit of bash scripting if they have the bug to make the computer do their bidding :)

I think this is probably one of the major advantages that drew me to linux; the plethora of powerful tools that are easily available to me.  Setting up similar tools on windows can be a nightmare in my experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was hooked by programming in the same way, but on the Apple IIe, which also would boot to a BASIC prompt (though there was some sort of reboot key combo required as I recall).  Started w/ print statements, and soon moved to graphical programming, which luckily one of my manuals had a section on.</p>
<p>I also remember trying to learn C in the late 90&#8217;s; the selection of free tools available at that time was pale in comparison to tools available today.  This is something that I think was a major barrier; it&#8217;s much less risky to spend a bit of time installing some free tools to experiment with than to have to buy a piece of software just to do some tinkering.</p>
<p>So I think the resources available today are much greater, but as you say, it&#8217;s much more complicated.  Luckily, as you point out, there are languages such as python which are quite easy to start playing with, but do not come pre-installed . . . at least on a windows machine.  Python, Perl, and gcc are pretty standard features of most Linux distros.  Heck, users can even start with a bit of bash scripting if they have the bug to make the computer do their bidding <img src='http://gamesfromwithin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I think this is probably one of the major advantages that drew me to linux; the plethora of powerful tools that are easily available to me.  Setting up similar tools on windows can be a nightmare in my experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Schwartz</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/bringing-back-the-dream/comment-page-1#comment-375</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Schwartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Aug 2006 03:40:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=346#comment-375</guid>
		<description>Bringing back the dream is good.  Or is that the memory of those good old days?  :)  Keep an eye out for Phrogram - we&#039;re working on it, too.  Blogged about you here: &lt;a href=&quot;http://theschwartz.wordpress.com/2006/08/18/bringing-back-the-dream/.&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://theschwartz.wordpress.com/2006/08/18/bringing-back-the-dream/.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bringing back the dream is good.  Or is that the memory of those good old days?  <img src='http://gamesfromwithin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   Keep an eye out for Phrogram &#8211; we&#8217;re working on it, too.  Blogged about you here: <a href="http://theschwartz.wordpress.com/2006/08/18/bringing-back-the-dream/." rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://theschwartz.wordpress.com/2006/08/18/bringing-back-the-dream/" rel="nofollow">http://theschwartz.wordpress.com/2006/08/18/bringing-back-the-dream/</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: g</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/bringing-back-the-dream/comment-page-1#comment-374</link>
		<dc:creator>g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=346#comment-374</guid>
		<description>I have similar memories (I also started out on the CPC); that cursor prompt practically said &quot;make me do something&quot; and I seem to recall that the manual that came with the machine was also an introduction to BASIC. When I upgraded from that to an Atari ST, I can remember how amazed I was that there was no inbuilt programming language. It&#039;s even worse nowadays, there seem so many barriers to just getting started and nothing&#039;s simple.



I have suspected for a while that this has also had an adverse effect on the programmers coming into the industry. When I started, there was a culture of experimentation and exploration; you were encouraged to learn and understand, and things were accessible. Today, this seems to have shifted towards knowing how to use visual designers and what libraries to use / call.



However, I&#039;ve increasingly noticed that when faced with something slightly more unusal or things that aren&#039;t working as expected, they often simply don&#039;t know how to even start trying to solve the problem; this is especially noticeable if they have to use a debugger, which many newcomers have often only used a few times before. I suspect that the lack of this history of experimentation, machine organisation, etc. discourages them from trying to find out and understand more about the machine, language, libraries, etc. they&#039;re using and this puts them at a serious disadvantage in my view.



Although I like the sound of XNA, I&#039;d really like C++ support as well; whilst I understand Microsoft want to push .Net, as far as I can tell C++ is still (by far) the dominant language within the games industry, and likely to remain that way for the near future (if not a lot longer).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have similar memories (I also started out on the CPC); that cursor prompt practically said &#8220;make me do something&#8221; and I seem to recall that the manual that came with the machine was also an introduction to BASIC. When I upgraded from that to an Atari ST, I can remember how amazed I was that there was no inbuilt programming language. It&#8217;s even worse nowadays, there seem so many barriers to just getting started and nothing&#8217;s simple.</p>
<p>I have suspected for a while that this has also had an adverse effect on the programmers coming into the industry. When I started, there was a culture of experimentation and exploration; you were encouraged to learn and understand, and things were accessible. Today, this seems to have shifted towards knowing how to use visual designers and what libraries to use / call.</p>
<p>However, I&#8217;ve increasingly noticed that when faced with something slightly more unusal or things that aren&#8217;t working as expected, they often simply don&#8217;t know how to even start trying to solve the problem; this is especially noticeable if they have to use a debugger, which many newcomers have often only used a few times before. I suspect that the lack of this history of experimentation, machine organisation, etc. discourages them from trying to find out and understand more about the machine, language, libraries, etc. they&#8217;re using and this puts them at a serious disadvantage in my view.</p>
<p>Although I like the sound of XNA, I&#8217;d really like C++ support as well; whilst I understand Microsoft want to push .Net, as far as I can tell C++ is still (by far) the dominant language within the games industry, and likely to remain that way for the near future (if not a lot longer).</p>
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		<title>By: Reflections</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/bringing-back-the-dream/comment-page-1#comment-380</link>
		<dc:creator>Reflections</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=346#comment-380</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Homebrew FTW&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
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<p><strong>Homebrew FTW</strong></p>
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		<title>By: gman</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/bringing-back-the-dream/comment-page-1#comment-373</link>
		<dc:creator>gman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:44:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=346#comment-373</guid>
		<description>I really want to love this XNA thing but without more details, so far it sounds like C# with a smaller .NET library that runs on both platforms. Other than the Microsoft name stamped on it is that really more than just using SDL or a hundred other free frameworks out there?



If this was an MS clone of Virtools for PC/360 or an MS clone of the Unreal tools for PC/360 then maybe this would truely be revolutionary opening up the doors for more and more people, letting them get their feet wet in game development without having to know 100s of details of programming but as it is it sounds like the hype of being executable on 360 is actually overshadowing that it&#039;s really not more than is already out there.



In fact MS&#039;s own DirectX already ships with C# game examples or visa-versa.



As Noel mentioned, something like Dark Basic or possibly better yet Blitz Basic might have been better. It&#039;s pretty clear they work well. Some where between Virtools and C#.



(PS: I love to come help you get it there :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really want to love this XNA thing but without more details, so far it sounds like C# with a smaller .NET library that runs on both platforms. Other than the Microsoft name stamped on it is that really more than just using SDL or a hundred other free frameworks out there?</p>
<p>If this was an MS clone of Virtools for PC/360 or an MS clone of the Unreal tools for PC/360 then maybe this would truely be revolutionary opening up the doors for more and more people, letting them get their feet wet in game development without having to know 100s of details of programming but as it is it sounds like the hype of being executable on 360 is actually overshadowing that it&#8217;s really not more than is already out there.</p>
<p>In fact MS&#8217;s own DirectX already ships with C# game examples or visa-versa.</p>
<p>As Noel mentioned, something like Dark Basic or possibly better yet Blitz Basic might have been better. It&#8217;s pretty clear they work well. Some where between Virtools and C#.</p>
<p>(PS: I love to come help you get it there <img src='http://gamesfromwithin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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