<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Are We There Yet? SlickEdit&#8217;s C++ Refactoring</title>
	<atom:link href="http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring</link>
	<description>Indie iPhone game development</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 04:13:35 -0800</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Scott Westfall</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring/comment-page-1#comment-278</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Westfall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 17:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=338#comment-278</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the fair and balanced review. I&#039;m the Director of Software Development at SlickEdit, and thought I&#039;d share a little about this feature.



As you noted, C++ refactoring is an extremely difficult problem. You have to contend with macros, templates, and the liberties the compiler vendors have taken with the language spec.  We designed our approach around a strong parsing and type analysis engine, and consequently it is very sensitive to the code that it is processing.



When I wrote our Cool Features document, I consciously left off the C++ Refactoring because it doesn&#039;t work for all codebases and still struggles with some situations.  If it worked as well as the features currently listed, it would definitely have made the list.



We are continuing to enhance the engine and work on additional &quot;quick&quot; refactorings that are based on our tagging engine. As you pointed out in the review, we consider these to be less &quot;robust&quot;.  That doesn&#039;t mean that they are more fragile, but that they may make changes that are not strictly accurate, where the regular refactorings will do more analysis to weed out these cases.



Unfortunately, we don&#039;t provide access to the underlying representation of the code, as you have asked.  Likewise, it would be very difficult to provide a means to allow users to write their own refactorings.  But that&#039;s a really great idea!



Feel free to contact me with ideas and questions.  We&#039;re a company of hard-core C++ programmers and we love to talk about coding!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the fair and balanced review. I&#8217;m the Director of Software Development at SlickEdit, and thought I&#8217;d share a little about this feature.</p>
<p>As you noted, C++ refactoring is an extremely difficult problem. You have to contend with macros, templates, and the liberties the compiler vendors have taken with the language spec.  We designed our approach around a strong parsing and type analysis engine, and consequently it is very sensitive to the code that it is processing.</p>
<p>When I wrote our Cool Features document, I consciously left off the C++ Refactoring because it doesn&#8217;t work for all codebases and still struggles with some situations.  If it worked as well as the features currently listed, it would definitely have made the list.</p>
<p>We are continuing to enhance the engine and work on additional &#8220;quick&#8221; refactorings that are based on our tagging engine. As you pointed out in the review, we consider these to be less &#8220;robust&#8221;.  That doesn&#8217;t mean that they are more fragile, but that they may make changes that are not strictly accurate, where the regular refactorings will do more analysis to weed out these cases.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, we don&#8217;t provide access to the underlying representation of the code, as you have asked.  Likewise, it would be very difficult to provide a means to allow users to write their own refactorings.  But that&#8217;s a really great idea!</p>
<p>Feel free to contact me with ideas and questions.  We&#8217;re a company of hard-core C++ programmers and we love to talk about coding!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: gman</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring/comment-page-1#comment-277</link>
		<dc:creator>gman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2005 09:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=338#comment-277</guid>
		<description>I agree with you it sucks to get charged twice for 2 platforms but in general price should not be that big of an issue if it makes you more productive.  Especially if you are a programmer your editor is the single piece of software you use the most.  Get a good one.  $300 is about $1.20 a day (assuming 250 days of work a year).  I&#039;ve been with slickedit since version 1 and I know it&#039;s certainly been worth for me.



They&#039;ve had many things relatively early (first?) for example tags with pop up help since 1998?  Of course some of that stuff is now built into VC++ but back then, especially when joining a project already in progress with a large unfamiliar code base it makes it extremely easy to jump around the code quickly. Pop into a function or structure def, follow it&#039;s fields or variables, pop back out to where you were.



I&#039;ve never had any real issues with support over the 12 years I&#039;ve been using it.  I&#039;m sorry to hear you had trouble.



Of course programmers and editors are like religion so use whatever makes you happy and productive.  This is probably a sad reason but I originally choose slickedit because it nearly perfectly emulated Brief.  Something other editors claimed but all of them failed at.  One thing I like about it (I&#039;m sure some other editors can do this) is that you can configure it to never need a mouse.  I can jump between windows, split them, join them etc.  Open files, search, etc all without every touching a mouse and without having to tab around dialogs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you it sucks to get charged twice for 2 platforms but in general price should not be that big of an issue if it makes you more productive.  Especially if you are a programmer your editor is the single piece of software you use the most.  Get a good one.  $300 is about $1.20 a day (assuming 250 days of work a year).  I&#8217;ve been with slickedit since version 1 and I know it&#8217;s certainly been worth for me.</p>
<p>They&#8217;ve had many things relatively early (first?) for example tags with pop up help since 1998?  Of course some of that stuff is now built into VC++ but back then, especially when joining a project already in progress with a large unfamiliar code base it makes it extremely easy to jump around the code quickly. Pop into a function or structure def, follow it&#8217;s fields or variables, pop back out to where you were.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never had any real issues with support over the 12 years I&#8217;ve been using it.  I&#8217;m sorry to hear you had trouble.</p>
<p>Of course programmers and editors are like religion so use whatever makes you happy and productive.  This is probably a sad reason but I originally choose slickedit because it nearly perfectly emulated Brief.  Something other editors claimed but all of them failed at.  One thing I like about it (I&#8217;m sure some other editors can do this) is that you can configure it to never need a mouse.  I can jump between windows, split them, join them etc.  Open files, search, etc all without every touching a mouse and without having to tab around dialogs.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert 'Groby' Blum</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring/comment-page-1#comment-276</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert 'Groby' Blum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2005 04:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=338#comment-276</guid>
		<description>Jamie: I have no idea. I used to use SlickEdit, and they had better support back then. Maybe because I was only a demo user?



Anyways - the dual license for PC/Mac was the real kicker for me. I could&#039;ve lived with the occasional crash(can&#039;t be worse than VisualStudio....), but $600 out of my own pocket is beyond what I&#039;m willing to spend on a tool</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jamie: I have no idea. I used to use SlickEdit, and they had better support back then. Maybe because I was only a demo user?</p>
<p>Anyways &#8211; the dual license for PC/Mac was the real kicker for me. I could&#8217;ve lived with the occasional crash(can&#8217;t be worse than VisualStudio&#8230;.), but $600 out of my own pocket is beyond what I&#8217;m willing to spend on a tool</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Noel Llopis</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring/comment-page-1#comment-275</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel Llopis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:24:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=338#comment-275</guid>
		<description>Interesting the link for Ref++. I will definitely give it a try. It&#039;s unfortunate that it&#039;s only a Visual Studio plug-in and not a standalone tool with an option to integrate in VS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting the link for Ref++. I will definitely give it a try. It&#8217;s unfortunate that it&#8217;s only a Visual Studio plug-in and not a standalone tool with an option to integrate in VS.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kim Gräsman</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring/comment-page-1#comment-274</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim Gräsman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=338#comment-274</guid>
		<description>Hi Noel,



If you&#039;re interested in C++ refactoring tools, you may want to try out Ref++:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ideat-solutions.com/index.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.ideat-solutions.com/index.htm&lt;/a&gt;



My experiences so far haven&#039;t been great, but I&#039;ve only tried it on a huge legacy codebase, which shall not be named.



- Kim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Noel,</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re interested in C++ refactoring tools, you may want to try out Ref++:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ideat-solutions.com/index.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ideat-solutions.com/index.htm</a></p>
<p>My experiences so far haven&#8217;t been great, but I&#8217;ve only tried it on a huge legacy codebase, which shall not be named.</p>
<p>- Kim</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jamie Fristrom</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring/comment-page-1#comment-273</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Fristrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=338#comment-273</guid>
		<description>I gave the demo a whirl for our Spider-Man codebase - it can supposedly handle a .NET project, but we use makefiles, and it would have taken me a lot of work to show SlickEdit where all the files were, and I&#039;m barely even a programmer anymore, so I gave up.  But I&#039;m surprised by Robert&#039;s claims about bad customer support:  they kept asking me what my problems were, assigned a tech guy to me, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I gave the demo a whirl for our Spider-Man codebase &#8211; it can supposedly handle a .NET project, but we use makefiles, and it would have taken me a lot of work to show SlickEdit where all the files were, and I&#8217;m barely even a programmer anymore, so I gave up.  But I&#8217;m surprised by Robert&#8217;s claims about bad customer support:  they kept asking me what my problems were, assigned a tech guy to me, etc.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: DrMagic</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring/comment-page-1#comment-272</link>
		<dc:creator>DrMagic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=338#comment-272</guid>
		<description>Thats very cool. thanks, I will have to check this refactoring engine out.



I was trying to build a refactoring/reflection/metaobjects system for C++ when I gave up on C++ and moved on to D. Ive never even heard of a language more difficult to parse than c++. You can parse D code with your eyes closed so building these tools are cake. No required forward references is more liberating than you can imagine and the compile times are 1/50th of c++. I think D is the future for game development.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thats very cool. thanks, I will have to check this refactoring engine out.</p>
<p>I was trying to build a refactoring/reflection/metaobjects system for C++ when I gave up on C++ and moved on to D. Ive never even heard of a language more difficult to parse than c++. You can parse D code with your eyes closed so building these tools are cake. No required forward references is more liberating than you can imagine and the compile times are 1/50th of c++. I think D is the future for game development.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Noel Llopis</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring/comment-page-1#comment-271</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel Llopis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=338#comment-271</guid>
		<description>Oh, it&#039;s only for VS 2005 :-( I guess that will have to wait then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, it&#8217;s only for VS 2005 <img src='http://gamesfromwithin.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' />  I guess that will have to wait then.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Noel Llopis</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring/comment-page-1#comment-270</link>
		<dc:creator>Noel Llopis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=338#comment-270</guid>
		<description>Cool, I hadn&#039;t seen the Visual Studio plugin beta. I&#039;ll give it a try over the next few days with a much larger codebase at work and see how it goes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cool, I hadn&#8217;t seen the Visual Studio plugin beta. I&#8217;ll give it a try over the next few days with a much larger codebase at work and see how it goes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert 'Groby' Blum</title>
		<link>http://gamesfromwithin.com/are-we-there-yet-slickedits-c-refactoring/comment-page-1#comment-269</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert 'Groby' Blum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2005 04:35:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gamesfromwithin.dreamhosters.com/?p=338#comment-269</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not there yet. I ran the PC demo, and the thing crashes as if it would go out of style tomorrow. What&#039;s worse, I send the company a list of detailed bug reports (+repro cases) several pages long, and never heard back from them - not my idea of customer service. Yes, it was only the demo - still, at least a &quot;Yup. Got it&quot; would&#039;ve been appropriate.



Add to that the fact that I have a Mac laptop while I do most of my &quot;work&quot; work at a PC, and they want me to buy dual licenses for that setup. I&#039;m not shelling out $600 for a buggy editor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not there yet. I ran the PC demo, and the thing crashes as if it would go out of style tomorrow. What&#8217;s worse, I send the company a list of detailed bug reports (+repro cases) several pages long, and never heard back from them &#8211; not my idea of customer service. Yes, it was only the demo &#8211; still, at least a &#8220;Yup. Got it&#8221; would&#8217;ve been appropriate.</p>
<p>Add to that the fact that I have a Mac laptop while I do most of my &#8220;work&#8221; work at a PC, and they want me to buy dual licenses for that setup. I&#8217;m not shelling out $600 for a buggy editor.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
